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  • Dr. M isn't all that evil, all he wanted to do was open the Cooper vault. Sure he is a psychopath and it is shown when he killed Richards for not changing the password, but he only is like that because Conner Cooper treated him badly and almost thought nothing of him, so in reality Sly's father is the one to blame for Dr. M being the way he is. I guess what I'm trying to say is that Dr. M isn't as evil as Clockwork or Neyla, Clockwork had no good reason to become evil, and Neyla became evil for her own greed, whil Dr. M actually had a reason for being evil.

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    • I don't necessarily think he is "evil," but he seems to be mentally unstable. Do you really think that Conner treated Dr. M poorly? It was more likely his broken interpretation of what was going on.

      For all we know, Conner didn't even have that much money (OK, maybe he did). When you arrive at his "shrine" in the Cooper Vault, you can see piles of gold, but those are actually part of a lower level that Sly had already been past (I'm not sure what part, but you can see another shrine below the first laser that you slide across).

      There's backstory that we don't have relating to Dr. M that would likely explain all of this. To speculate: maybe, as a doctor, he had a lot of schooling debt and that's what drove him to thievery. When he learned of the Cooper Vault and all of the riches it possessed, you can bet your bottom dollar that he wanted it. When Conner - being the respectful person we know him to be (thanks to all of the words of wisdom we have gotten vicariously from him through Sly) - didn't allow him (or Jim McSweeney, who did not talk ill of him) into the Vault, Dr. M must have thought it was betrayal.

      We know that Dr. M has a warped mind thanks to the conversation between him and Carmelita in "Carmelita to the Rescue." I don't remember it word for word, but it was something along the lines of her saying not to hurt Sly, Dr. M scolding her for her obvious feelings for him and that he has every right to kill Sly since he's on his territory (a double lie right there, but it seems he believes it), Carmelita threatens to arrest Dr. M and then he decides to kill her as well.

      He may not have been evil, but he was a criminal, and he brought about his own downfall by refusing to leave "his" treasure. And I think he absolutely deserved what he got.

      Man... Sucker Punch can create really good villains in just a single game. This was the main villain of Sly 3, and he really felt like he was worth that title, even with only a single episode to focus on him and very little backstory.

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    • You guys have valid points, but there is little evidence to say if Conner Cooper was good or evil. The only point of view we get in the series about Conner is from Sly. Sly would obviously have a good opinion of him because he is his son, and he looked like a hero in Sly's young eyes. We never hear McSweeney talk in the actually games. Since the cutscenes are in Sly's point of view, we only know McSweeney's general view of Conner, which was interpreted by Sly his biggest fan. I find it suspicious that two of Sly's greatest enemies: Dr.M and Cyrille Le Paradox were created by Sly's father. I don't necessary think Sly's father was evil. I do think he was probably worse than Sly in that amount. Sly hasn't created any of his villains, and we seem to have more viewpoints for him being not as nice as Sly thinks: Sly vs. Dr.M and Le Paradox.

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    • I agree with Tiger2025, and also you already know that the Cooper gang before the one now did not think of each other as family like Sly's gang does, so Dr. M might not be "lying" about that after all and it may be true that he was not treated equally.

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    • The cutscenes aren't "interpreted" by Sly. That argument would make sense if we had several points of view on a single event and they were different. We have no reason to assume that the cutscenes are skewed by Sly's state of mind.

      Also, Jim McSweeney does say that Conner was a good guy on page 9 of The Adventures of Sly Cooper, issue 2. "Your pop was a good man... We were pretty close." He also says "...he was one of a kind, that old man of yours." (And yes, the comics absolutely without a doubt are canon, so any arguments against them are invalid.)

      McSweeney and Conner definitely felt like family. Why else would Conner allow McSweeney into his house and allow him to bounce Sly on his knee?

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    • Well it would make more sense if the cutscenes are in Sly's point of view then if they are not, the reason for this is that Sly's the one talking inside these cutscenes and it seems like he is telling his opinions, this is especially seen when he talks about the Grizz's backstory because Sly says that "his fame was short lived however, when people realized that his paintings are just bad", we know from inside the game that Sly doesn't like the Grizz's art work so this is more of a opinion than a fact. But that isn't such solid proof that the cutscenes are really in Sly's point of view, to really prove this you have to think about pathetic cutscenes that Bentley's voice plays in, you see Sly isn't with him so that's why it isn't Sly's voice speaking(and let's face it when Sly was captured by the Contessa he couldn't say a cutscene) and Bentley says that he is all alone and with and he really missed the gang(not to mention in cutscenes narrated by Sly and Bentley they talk in first person using words like I or we) and those are Bentleys feelings. And when Sly narrates a cutscene he also tells his opinions and feelings.

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    • Yes but just because Sly's father treated Mcsweeny nicely doesn't exactly mean that he treated Dr. M the same way, Conner might have liked Mcsweeny but hate Dr. M. Also Mcsweeny could have been lying and the only reason he said Conner was a "good man" is because he wanted Sly to have a good image of his father.

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    • That's all speculation.

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    • Yes, but so is Conner treating Dr. M goodly.

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      • nicely
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    • Do you supose they'll bring a little more of that story of his father in the new movie?

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    • EH28 wrote:
      Yes, but so is Conner treating Dr. M goodly.

      I clearly marked my speculation as such.

      Tabreez wrote:
      Do you supose they'll bring a little more of that story of his father in the new movie?

      His relationship with Dr. M? Unlikely. However, it's possible that we get information about his past, though it wouldn't be canon in the game series (unless Sony says otherwise, which they won't).

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    • Teenbat wrote:

      EH28 wrote:
      Yes, but so is Conner treating Dr. M goodly.

      I clearly marked my speculation as such.

      Tabreez wrote:
      Do you supose they'll bring a little more of that story of his father in the new movie?

      His relationship with Dr. M? Unlikely. However, it's possible that we get information about his past, though it wouldn't be canon in the game series (unless Sony says otherwise, which they won't).

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    • And I also mark mine as such.

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    • Also wouldn't it technically be canon if it's in a new game that leaves off where Sly 4 started? I'm not saying that a new game like Hack Pack would be canon but I am saying a new game like Sly 4 would be.

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    • Tabreez wrote:
      Do you supose they'll bring a little more of that story of his father in the new movie?

      Since the movie seems like it is going to be an orgin story like the Ratchet and Clank movie they probably will shed more light his father, and his mother in terms how it is relevant to Sly. There is little chance that outside characters like Dr. M or McSweeney would be included. The only reason I think there was a chance is because the Ratchet and Clank movie included Dr. Nefarious the villain of the third Rachet and Clank game. He is also considered to be the main antagonist of the series. Unfortunately, the movie didn't do very well in the box offices. Most likely the movie will just try and stay relevant to the first game.

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    • Teenbat wrote:

      EH28 wrote:
      Yes, but so is Conner treating Dr. M goodly.

      I clearly marked my speculation as such.


      Tabreez wrote:
      Do you supose they'll bring a little more of that story of his father in the new movie?

      His relationship with Dr. M? Unlikely. However, it's possible that we get information about his past, though it wouldn't be canon in the game series (unless Sony says otherwise, which they won't).


      Since they are making a game with the movie would this new game and the movie be considered a new level of canon (lower than the four games) or a new "series". Like for example would we use a portal for this stuff, or would we make pages like: Sly Cooper(Remastered) or Raleigh(Remastered).

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    • There has been no confirmation of a video game tie-in with the movie. If it does get announced, we'll discuss it then, since we can't decide based on nothing.

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    • Teenbat wrote:
      There has been no confirmation of a video game tie-in with the movie. If it does get announced, we'll discuss it then, since we can't decide based on nothing.

      What about for just the movie?

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    • Tiger2025 wrote:
      What about for just the movie?

      We already have. The namespace is "Film:" (Film:Sly Cooper). And if you read this page, you'll see what the film means in terms of canon.

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    • Speaking of the possibillity of a re-imaging, have you guys heard anything on SuckerPunch or their secret project?

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    • Nope, only what can be gleaned from their job postings. Unless they've become a two game studio (which they've said they aren't) it's not Sly Cooper. It's open world, features accurate human facial anatomy and characters wearing currently fashionable clothing. Sounds like another inFAMOUS to me (which I'm fine with; I love inFAMOUS, even after the disappointment that was Second Son). It could also be a new IP. Who knows?

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    • I heard it was both open world and fun, don't you think that's how people would describe Sly Cooper?

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    • Uh, that's how I would describe hundreds of games, including inFAMOUS, Grand Theft Auto, Jak and Daxter, Beyond Good & Evil, the Batman: Arkham games, Far Cry, Fallout, Red Dead Redemption and more. Sly Cooper is less of an open world game than any of those. The "fun" thing was something Shuhei Yoshida said when asked about Sucker Punch's next game. Fun is not a word that you can really use to determine what the game will and won't be like. I'm assuming that you watched VTNVIVI's video?

      And don't forget, their next game has "a strong focus on realistic human anatomy, facial likeness and clothing," none of which are facets of Sly Cooper.

      I want it to happen too, but it just isn't.

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    • Teenbat wrote: Uh, that's how I would describe hundreds of games, including inFAMOUS, Grand Theft Auto, Jak and Daxter, Beyond Good & Evil, the Batman: Arkham games, Far Cry, Fallout, Red Dead Redemption and more. Sly Cooper is less of an open world game than any of those. The "fun" thing was something Shuhei Yoshida said when asked about Sucker Punch's next game. Fun is not a word that you can really use to determine what the game will and won't be like. I'm assuming that you watched VTNVIVI's video?

      And don't forget, their next game has "a strong focus on realistic human anatomy, facial likeness and clothing," none of which are facets of Sly Cooper.

      I want it to happen too, but it just isn't.

      I feel the same way with Teenbat that Sucker Punch will probably not make another game but I really want them too but they probably won't. But Sly Cooper is about anthropomorphic animals so in a way they are a lot like humans besides one main difference, their base are animals with human qualities. And a lot of the clothing in Sly Cooper actually look like real clothing or are based off of real clothing. And one last thing, the society in Sly Cooper is surprisingly similar to our society that we live in, in fact the only major difference is that a great deal of science fiction(like unrealistic technology affect these animal's lives), but this aspect is mostly in Sly 4 and parts of Sly 3, while Sly 2 is surprisingly realistic with almost no unreal technology(except Arpeggio's blimp of course or Clockwerk).

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    • EH28 wrote:

      Teenbat wrote: Uh, that's how I would describe hundreds of games, including inFAMOUS, Grand Theft Auto, Jak and Daxter, Beyond Good & Evil, the Batman: Arkham games, Far Cry, Fallout, Red Dead Redemption and more. Sly Cooper is less of an open world game than any of those. The "fun" thing was something Shuhei Yoshida said when asked about Sucker Punch's next game. Fun is not a word that you can really use to determine what the game will and won't be like. I'm assuming that you watched VTNVIVI's video?

      And don't forget, their next game has "a strong focus on realistic human anatomy, facial likeness and clothing," none of which are facets of Sly Cooper.

      I want it to happen too, but it just isn't.

      I feel the same way with Teenbat that Sucker Punch will probably not make another game but I really want them too but they probably won't. But Sly Cooper is about anthropomorphic animals so in a way they are a lot like humans besides one main difference, their base are animals with human qualities. And a lot of the clothing in Sly Cooper actually look like real clothing or are based off of real clothing. And one last thing, the society in Sly Cooper is surprisingly similar to our society that we live in, in fact the only major difference is that a great deal of science fiction(like unrealistic technology affect these animal's lives), but this aspect is mostly in Sly 4 and parts of Sly 3, while Sly 2 is surprisingly realistic with almost no unreal technology(except Arpeggio's blimp of course or Clockwerk).

      Don't forget about the Northern Lights battery in Sly 2.

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    • I actually do watch VtnVivi's videos on Sly Cooper and he really has a lot of great theories and ideas. He actually pointed out some clues Sucker Punch may have put in a few images they posted on twitter which may possibly hint on another Sly Cooper game.

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    • Tabreez wrote: I actually do watch VtnVivi's videos on Sly Cooper and he really has a lot of great theories and ideas. He actually pointed out some clues Sucker Punch may have put in a few images they posted on twitter which may possibly hint on another Sly Cooper game.

      I watch his videos too, and while they are definitely interesting, I look at everything that has been said by Sucker Punch and come up with my own conclusions. Like I've said twice now, the game features realistic humans. That just isn't Sly Cooper.

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    • EH28 wrote:
      I feel the same way with Teenbat that Sucker Punch will probably not make another game but I really want them too but they probably won't. But Sly Cooper is about anthropomorphic animals so in a way they are a lot like humans besides one main difference, their base are animals with human qualities. And a lot of the clothing in Sly Cooper actually look like real clothing or are based off of real clothing. And one last thing, the society in Sly Cooper is surprisingly similar to our society that we live in, in fact the only major difference is that a great deal of science fiction(like unrealistic technology affect these animal's lives), but this aspect is mostly in Sly 4 and parts of Sly 3, while Sly 2 is surprisingly realistic with almost no unreal technology(except Arpeggio's blimp of course or Clockwerk).

      I already pointed out Sly Cooper has a strong focus on human features.

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    • Opps, that didn't come out quite right. Oh well still made my point.

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    • I fixed it, but I disagree. They look like animals, not humans.

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    • I'm sorry but can raccoons walk, talk, walk on lines, jump on spires, or let alone grasp stuff in real life?

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    • Well hold on to a cane be skilled with it?

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    • That has nothing to do with realistic human features. They are anthropomorphic, but look at Sly's face. Does he look like a human? No, he looks like a raccoon.

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    • It kinda does, Sly has a very expressive face(way more expressive than a regular raccoon) and that makes him look like a human a lot.

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    • We can keep going back and forth on this (me saying that while Sly and other characters are anthropomorphicized they still look more like animals than anything else, you saying that the characters look human and have human features) but I'd rather not.

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    • Yeah me too, let's talk about something else.

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    • So any sugestions?

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    • Yeah, maybe we should talk about Dr. M or Conner?

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    • Do you guys believe that Conner wasn't always a good guy based off of what Dr. M says?

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    • Is Sly really a good guy? They're both thieves, so...

      But no, like I said in my very first response on this thread, I think that Dr. M is mentally unsound and likely believes that Conner treated him unkindly when we know that McSweeney was treated the same way (he wasn't allowed to go to the Cooper Vault either) but thinks very highly of Conner. Who do I trust more? The thief who wants to reform himself in prison. Not the mad man (mad monkey?) that performs disturbing genetic experiments and murders an employee for minor mistakes after first bringing up his family.

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    • Good point. BTW McSweeney is actually the muscles of the actual thief's gang, also your first sentence in that comment made it sound like Sly is just as bad as the criminals he's faced in the past (who BTW steal from the innocent).

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    • I know that he's the brawn, but he's still a thief. And no, Sly isn't as bad as the villains he's faced, but he's still breaking the law.

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    • He fights for justice on the opposite side of the law

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    • I don't think I've ever seen Sly fight injustice. He has a code, but he still breaks the law. Not every "hero" has to be a paragon of virtue. Sly's a good guy that does bad things and finds pleasure in those things, and that's OK.

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    • Teenbat wrote:
      I don't think I've ever seen Sly fight injustice. He has a code, but he still breaks the law. Not every "hero" has to be a paragon of virtue. Sly's a good guy that does bad things and finds pleasure in those things, and that's OK.

      This is oldly the basic idea of Friedrich Nietzsche Beyond Good and Evil; 'Bad' and/or Amoral men can and often do good things and 'Good' and/or moral men can and often do bad things.

      It better to think of people and characters as just people and characters instead of minions, sidekicks, villains, and heroes. They may do damnable or heroic things but in the end, we would of did the exact same thing with their past experiences and current situation.  

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    • Yes but it's a video game so we kinda have to think of them like that, if it wasn't fictional we can't count them in categories like that.

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    • Teenbat wrote: Is Sly really a good guy? They're both thieves, so...

      But no, like I said in my very first response on this thread, I think that Dr. M is mentally unsound and likely believes that Conner treated him unkindly when we know that McSweeney was treated the same way (he wasn't allowed to go to the Cooper Vault either) but thinks very highly of Conner. Who do I trust more? The thief who wants to reform himself in prison. Not the mad man (mad monkey?) that performs disturbing genetic experiments and murders an employee for minor mistakes after first bringing up his family.

      First of all how do we know Mcsweeny was treated the same way(we don't), I'm not saying that Dr. M isn't insane but how do you that Conner didn't drive him to insanity?

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    • Teenbat wrote:
      I don't think I've ever seen Sly fight injustice. He has a code, but he still breaks the law. Not every "hero" has to be a paragon of virtue. Sly's a good guy that does bad things and finds pleasure in those things, and that's OK.

      He's batman.

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    • You don't even know if Mcsweeny was treated nicely.

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    • EH28 wrote:
      You don't even know if Mcsweeny was treated nicely.

      He was treated kind ehough to help Conner's son 10 years after his death. 

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    • Well you don't know if Jim just thought sorry for Sly or if he liked Conner, it would make more sense if he thought sorry for Sly.

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    • Teenbat wrote:
      I don't think I've ever seen Sly fight injustice. He has a code, but he still breaks the law. Not every "hero" has to be a paragon of virtue. Sly's a good guy that does bad things and finds pleasure in those things, and that's OK.

      Let's see: He stopped a mad man from sinking & plundering innocent ships in the Welch triangle, he returned Mesa City to the people, he stopped the undead from taking over Mexico, he stopped a demolitionist from blowing up mountain villages in China.

      There's more: He did a forger a "favor" and stopped his conter-fitting operation in Paris, he prevented spice production in India, he stopped a corrupt cop from brainwashing criminals into handing her the stolen goods in Prague, he saved the forrests in Canada from making more space for another strip mall, he prevented a light show of hate in Paris which was going to be "outlandishly cruel".

      Still more: He stopped a mob boss from destroying landmarks in Italy, he helped an aboriginal guru stop a mining operation in the sacred sites of Australia, he won a dogfight competition in Holland, he saved a bride from being married forcefully to an evil general in China, he rid the seven seas of the smartest man.

      I'm not trying to say they're all for the sake of justice, that's why I'm asking you guys to help narrow down the ones that are.

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    • I'm unsubscribing from this thread because the speculation is just getting crazy and it isn't enjoyable for me to read.

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    • Ok whatever.

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    • I guess you caved.

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    • And Tabreez all of those are examples of Sly fighting injustice except the dog fight.

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    • And Conner being a "nice guy" is also speculation, and speculation is what threads are made from here are examples: Clockwerk's backstory thread, Penelope not being evil, and Sly Cooper inspiring other movie series. Those are just a few examples of threads being built on speculation, if you want to see more look through all the forums and their threads. Also if you say the the speculation makes it not enjoyable you say tons of speculation yourself when you see Conner is a "good person".

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    • Tabreez wrote:

      Teenbat wrote:
      I don't think I've ever seen Sly fight injustice. He has a code, but he still breaks the law. Not every "hero" has to be a paragon of virtue. Sly's a good guy that does bad things and finds pleasure in those things, and that's OK.

      Let's see: He stopped a mad man from sinking & plundering innocent ships in the Welch triangle, he returned Mesa City to the people, he stopped the undead from taking over Mexico, he stopped a demolitionist from blowing up mountain villages in China.

      There's more: He did a forger a "favor" and stopped his conter-fitting operation in Paris, he prevented spice production in India, he stopped a corrupt cop from brainwashing criminals into handing her the stolen goods in Prague, he saved the forrests in Canada from making more space for another strip mall, he prevented a light show of hate in Paris which was going to be "outlandishly cruel".

      Still more: He stopped a mob boss from destroying landmarks in Italy, he helped an aboriginal guru stop a mining operation in the sacred sites of Australia, he won a dogfight competition in Holland, he saved a bride from being married forcefully to an evil general in China, he rid the seven seas of the smartest man.

      I'm not trying to say they're all for the sake of justice, that's why I'm asking you guys to help narrow down the ones that are.

      I think the best examples are the ones in Sly 1 for Sly fighting injustice.

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    • I meant to say "say" not "see" sorry for the improper grammar.

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    • I'm back for one more comment.

      I didn't "cave," this just isn't enjoyable.

      And "Conner being a 'nice guy' is also speculation"... It's not speculation, at all. It is literally the only thing we know about how Conner acts.

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    • I know u cave because of three main reasons: You said you were done right after Tabreez's argument that you can't argue against, you totally ignored my counter argument about threads being built on speculation, it's what separates them from talk pages, and you were fine going on threads with speculation like mine or perhaps even worse like the Clockwerk background thread(do I have to remind you about the love chip?).

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    • And Tabreez do you think Conner was the "nice guy" we think he is?

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    • I'm sure he was, but do you know what I think, I think he was more suspicious of Dr. M wronging him at one point and he most likely did, either that or they had a good friendship but then somebody sabotaged it, but yet I still feel that Dr. M may've spoken the truth about him not being a good friend, probably he cared more about his reputation than his friends and it may be true that McSweeney cared about Sly's opinions and feelings of his father.

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    • You're right, I did ignore them.

      If you want me to respond to those "unbeatable" arguments, I will. The "justice" you claim was just a bi-product. He didn't fight Raleigh to stop his pirating, he fought him to the get the pages of the Thievius Raccoonus. Basically everything Sly does is for a "selfish" reason (preventing the revival of Clockwerk due to his fear of him, causing Murray to rejoin the gang, making the Panda King join his gang in order to have a demolitionist for breaking into the Cooper Vault, etc.).

      I'm leaving the thread because all that's happening is this: I say something, then you guys attempt to tear me apart for it. Normally, I would be fine with that, but nothing good is coming of it. You clearly aren't trying to see my points, and what points you're trying to make seem to be just for sake of argument.

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    • Teenbat wrote:
      You're right, I did ignore them.

      If you want me to respond to those "unbeatable" arguments, I will. The "justice" you claim was just a bi-product. He didn't fight Raleigh to stop his pirating, he fought him to the get the pages of the Thievius Raccoonus. Basically everything Sly does is for a "selfish" reason (preventing the revival of Clockwerk due to his fear of him, causing Murray to rejoin the gang, making the Panda King join his gang in order to have a demolitionist for breaking into the Cooper Vault, etc.).

      I'm leaving the thread because all that's happening is this: I say something, then you guys attempt to tear me apart for it. Normally, I would be fine with that, but nothing good is coming of it. You clearly aren't trying to see my points, and what points you're trying to make seem to be just for sake of argument.

      I'll agree with Teenbat here

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    • Panda King: "Are you here to steal back the Theivius Raccoonus." Sly: "That was my plan at first but now I'm more interested in stopping your operation." You can argue with everyone of those arguments and say that they're are just examples of Sly being selfish except for the Panda King's, Sly literally says he wants to stop the Panda King's injustice. And if we were not seeing your points there wouldn't be a thread here at all, also does anything good come out when you go on a different thread? Also you said you would leave before because of the speculation, well you didn't reply to my Clockwerk evidence that you stayed on that thread when there was speculation even bigger(do I have to remind you about the love chip?), so that was a lie, eh?

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    • And actually I agree with Tabreez about what he stands on this.

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    • And now you're calling me a liar.

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    • No, I just said you lied about one thing because you wanted to leave. Also that isn't even the point the point is that you can argue about all of the examples of Sly fighting injustice except for the Panda King evidence where he literally says he will stop the Panda King's injustice.

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    • Teenbat wrote: You're right, I did ignore them.

      If you want me to respond to those "unbeatable" arguments, I will. The "justice" you claim was just a bi-product. He didn't fight Raleigh to stop his pirating, he fought him to the get the pages of the Thievius Raccoonus. Basically everything Sly does is for a "selfish" reason (preventing the revival of Clockwerk due to his fear of him, causing Murray to rejoin the gang, making the Panda King join his gang in order to have a demolitionist for breaking into the Cooper Vault, etc.).

      I'm leaving the thread because all that's happening is this: I say something, then you guys attempt to tear me apart for it. Normally, I would be fine with that, but nothing good is coming of it. You clearly aren't trying to see my points, and what points you're trying to make seem to be just for sake of argument.

      You ignore my points also(perhaps even more). Whenever I post a counter argument you either change the subject or say that's wrong.

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    • I only ignore what I see as irrelevant.

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    • Ok, but that still isn't the point, the point is that Sly does fight injustice seen when he fights the Panda King.

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    • OK, you got me. Sly fought injustice once.

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    • Ok, also there is no evidence that Sly did or did not intend to fight injustice the other times.

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    • Teenbat wrote:
      I only ignore what I see as irrelevant.

      Honestly this entire discussion has become irrelevant. This discussion was started out being about Dr. M not being that evil, while Conner may not be as good as Sly thinks to the Sly Cooper Movie to Sucker Punch developing a new game to how good is Sly to who is irrelevant. -Teenbat: Conner Cooper is a great hero who treated Dr. M with kindness. Two days later: Sly is a selfish raccoon who does everything for his own needs. Says the exact opposite of EH28. You guys need to stay on topic, or at least somewhat on topic.

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    • Yes, I agree with you Tiger2025 we should stay on topic, that's what I wanted to talk about from the beginning but a third of the discussion is whether or not the Sly Cooper characters are like humans, and if there's going to be a new Sly game. Can't we just talk about Dr. M instead.

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    • Well what's your opinions on him?

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    • I've given my opinions on Dr. M.

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    • I think Dr. M was just treated poorly by Conner and that him being treated badly lead to his insanity. What about you Tabreez?

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    • Dr. M is probably evil and insane, but I think it was caused mostly by Conner and McSweeney not seeing M as an equal, unlike Sly and Murray who care about Bentley. 

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    • I think McSweeney cared more about Dr. M than Conner ever did. Which makes me wonder, why didn't he tell Sly about Dr. M himself?

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    • Who knows? Dr. M was in issue 2 of The Adventures of Sly Cooper, but nothing was ever said about him. Perhaps McSweeney thought it was unimportant, never letting the idea of Dr. M trying to break into the Vault cross his mind.

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    • I agree with Tabreez here, that Mcsweeny cared about Dr. M more than Cooner did. But also that is never proven either so it is unknown.

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    • EH28 wrote: I agree with Tabreez here, that Mcsweeny cared about Dr. M more than Cooner did. But also that is never proven either so it is unknown.

      The fact that he doesn't mention him to Sly is a bit sketchy. Maybe he wasn't very fond of Dr. M, and didn't know him well enough to think he would try and break into the vault. Conner's gang seems to neglect the "nerd" of the group unlike Sly's gang. Sly didn't seem to abandon Bentley when he was physically crippled after the events of Sly 2, however, Conner and McSweeney seem to let Dr. M grow too insane in his obvious time of need. They may be evidence that Conner and McSweeney were equal, but none to support that any of them think of Dr. M as such. Just ask yourself this why didn't McSweeney try to ever help or at least talk Dr. M, even after Conner's death? Because he didn't see Dr. M as a good enough friend. He takes the cowardly excuse of checking himself into jail. Even more scaring he didn't even think Dr. M would be on Kaine Island. Some "friend" if you ask me.

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    • It's possible that Sucker Punch just didn't want to spoil who the main villain was going to be, considering the comic came out before the game.

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    • There isn't any proof on weather McSweeney did try to reason with Dr. M or not so let's not judge too quickly. Also what're the chance that McSweeney wanted to simply to help Dr. M avoid prison time so he could see how much he cared for him. Suddenly I remember more reasons for Suckerpunch to work on a Sly game which has a story related to that.

      Also it may've sounded sarcastic but didn't Dr. M refered to McSweeney as his "old pal"? But he could've also meant that he wasn't his pal anymore so...

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    • Well, we know that the gang broke up after Sly was born, and McSweeney last saw Conner when he handed off the map to him three years later, after which he turned himself in to Heathrow Penitentiary. So the only time Dr. M and McSweeney could have met up was in that three years. They were all "laying low" during that time, so it's possible that they never did and McSweeney has no idea what happened to Dr. M.

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    • Teenbat wrote: Well, we know that the gang broke up after Sly was born, and McSweeney last saw Conner when he handed off the map to him three years later, after which he turned himself in to Heathrow Penitentiary. So the only time Dr. M and McSweeney could have met up was in that three years. They were all "laying low" during that time, so it's possible that they never did and McSweeney has no idea what happened to Dr. M.

      It's also possible that Mcsweeny was working with Dr. M and it was all a setup(I know Dr. M denied it but how do we know that Dr. M just denied it because he wanted him to think of Jim as a good man because M liked Jim as a best friend perhaps). This is probably not true but Jim might've not even care about Dr. M and hate Sky so he sent him to cane island to have him killed. I honestly think that Jim cared about M though.

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    • Yeah I understand what you guys are saying. Dr. M probably became insane from his time alone. McSweeney may have seen a normal Dr. M before they separated. Thus he may have never seen the crazy M coming. His time alone probably amplified his jealously or anger at Conner to a wrong level. McSweeney could have been a Murray type friend to him, but Dr. M saw this as a hoax after his fall to insanity. Bentley could barely spend several weeks alone. He spent all his time searching for the gang, and when Penelope left he meets back up with the gang. I wonder if Dr. M spied on McSweeney and Conner like Bentley spied on Sly and Murray.

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    • Teenbat wrote:
      Well, we know that the gang broke up after Sly was born, and McSweeney last saw Conner when he handed off the map to him three years later, after which he turned himself in to Heathrow Penitentiary. So the only time Dr. M and McSweeney could have met up was in that three years. They were all "laying low" during that time, so it's possible that they never did and McSweeney has no idea what happened to Dr. M.

      I think Dr. M left the gang before Conners death and McSweeneys incarceration, in a similar way of how Murray left the gang but for different reasons. McSweeney must've turned himself in after M left and Conners death.

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    • Tiger2025 wrote:
      Yeah I understand what you guys are saying. Dr. M probably became insane from his time alone. McSweeney may have seen a normal Dr. M before they separated. Thus he may have never seen the crazy M coming. His time alone probably amplified his jealously or anger at Conner to a wrong level. McSweeney could have been a Murray type friend to him, but Dr. M saw this as a hoax after his fall to insanity. Bentley could barely spend several weeks alone. He spent all his time searching for the gang, and when Penelope left he meets back up with the gang. I wonder if Dr. M spied on McSweeney and Conner like Bentley spied on Sly and Murray.

      I wouldn't believe so, he sounded surprised when he first encountered Sly. He could've been expecting either him or hs father at some point but probably didn't know when.

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    • Tabreez wrote:
      I think Dr. M left the gang before Conners death and McSweeneys incarceration, in a similar way of how Murray left the gang but for different reasons. McSweeney must've turned himself in after M left and Conners death.

      No, McSweeney turned himself in after the map was hidden, five years before Conner's death and Dr. M left the gang when it broke up, right after Sly was born. I'm not making this up.

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    • Yeah I know you aren't, also I think Conner treated Dr. M badly and this started to drive Dr. M insane. And after Conner's death when Mcsweeny went to jail M went on his own. At first M was fine with it but eventually the time alone drove him completely insane.

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    • Maybe, but I also think that Dr. M was just jelous of Conners lineage.

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    • Tabreez wrote: Maybe, but I also think that Dr. M was just jelous of Conners lineage.

      I think Conner always bragged about his reputation and teased Dr. M about it constantly and would go to far. Thus making Dr. M jealous of Conner's lineage. I think Conner put his reputation in front of his friends, and then that's when the other part of my story kicks in.

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    • EH28 wrote:

      Tabreez wrote: Maybe, but I also think that Dr. M was just jelous of Conners lineage.

      I think Conner always bragged about his reputation and teased Dr. M about it constantly and would go to far. Thus making Dr. M jealous of Conner's lineage. I think Conner put his reputation in front of his friends, and then that's when the other part of my story kicks in.

      I think it was worse.

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    • It probably was.

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    • That's what I was thinking.

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    • Yes, I think that's exactly what happened, and the teasing was extremely bad.

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    • Ok do you think Dr. M grew up similarly to Bentley, for example do you think he was an orphan or was extremely distant to his parents.

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    • -?

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    • I would guess that Dr. M was either an orphan or a single child that had everything handed to him as he grew up (which is why he is so possessive).

      Bentley only became an orphan because he had vision problems. He one day wandered away from his family and was never able to find his way back. For all we know, Bentley's parents (and siblings, since he did have them) are still alive, and possibly looking for him.

      To finish of the parade of parents, we have no idea what happened to Murray's. He just showed up at the orphanage, and either has forgotten what happened to orphan him, or put it out of his mind and never talks about it. Pretty sad.

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    • Teenbat wrote: I would guess that Dr. M was either an orphan or a single child that had everything handed to him as he grew up (which is why he is so possessive).

      Bentley only became an orphan because he had vision problems. He one day wandered away from his family and was never able to find his way back. For all we know, Bentley's parents (and siblings, since he did have them) are still alive, and possibly looking for him.

      To finish of the parade of parents, we have no idea what happened to Murray's. He just showed up at the orphanage, and either has forgotten what happened to orphan him, or put it out of his mind and never talks about it. Pretty sad.

      This is all speculation but I think Dr. M was from a wealthy British family(that would explain his high intellect, because his parents could've paid for science lessons and etc.). But one day his parents were murdered and he was sent to a orphanage with horrible treatment. And for the rest of his childhood he had a rough life and no one liked him. For this caused him to become a criminal and mastermind some of the top crimes in the world. But eventually Conner invited him to his gang and at first he liked it, but after a while the way how Conner treated him poorly drove him insane, and he left the gang.

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    • Teenbat wrote:
      I would guess that Dr. M was either an orphan or a single child that had everything handed to him as he grew up (which is why he is so possessive).

      Bentley only became an orphan because he had vision problems. He one day wandered away from his family and was never able to find his way back. For all we know, Bentley's parents (and siblings, since he did have them) are still alive, and possibly looking for him.

      To finish of the parade of parents, we have no idea what happened to Murray's. He just showed up at the orphanage, and either has forgotten what happened to orphan him, or put it out of his mind and never talks about it. Pretty sad.

      Is that why Murray was such a coward in Sly 1? Oh yeah did Dr. M actually use McSweeney's DNA to make himself as strong as Murray or is that speculation?

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    • Tiger2025 wrote:
      Is that why Murray was such a coward in Sly 1? Oh yeah did Dr. M actually use McSweeney's DNA to make himself as strong as Murray or is that speculation?

      That is absolutely speculation. I've never even heard anybody say that before.

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    • Teenbat wrote:

      Bentley only became an orphan because he had vision problems. He one day wandered away from his family and was never able to find his way back. For all we know, Bentley's parents (and siblings, since he did have them) are still alive, and possibly looking for him.

      I didn't know that story on how Bentley became an orphan.

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    • EH28 wrote:

      Teenbat wrote: I would guess that Dr. M was either an orphan or a single child that had everything handed to him as he grew up (which is why he is so possessive).

      Bentley only became an orphan because he had vision problems. He one day wandered away from his family and was never able to find his way back. For all we know, Bentley's parents (and siblings, since he did have them) are still alive, and possibly looking for him.

      To finish of the parade of parents, we have no idea what happened to Murray's. He just showed up at the orphanage, and either has forgotten what happened to orphan him, or put it out of his mind and never talks about it. Pretty sad.

      This is all speculation but I think Dr. M was from a wealthy British family(that would explain his high intellect, because his parents could've paid for science lessons and etc.). But one day his parents were murdered and he was sent to a orphanage with horrible treatment. And for the rest of his childhood he had a rough life and no one liked him. For this caused him to become a criminal and mastermind some of the top crimes in the world. But eventually Conner invited him to his gang and at first he liked it, but after a while the way how Conner treated him poorly drove him insane, and he left the gang.

      Why British?

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    • Tabreez wrote:
      I didn't know that story on how Bentley became an orphan.

      Yep. Pretty sad, huh?

      Tabreez wrote:
      Why British?

      I was wondering the same thing... Is he British? If so, I never really noticed (usually something like that would stick out in my memory).

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    • Doesn't it say he is on this wiki?

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    • Alright I found it, go on Arpeggio's trivia. It states that Dr. M is one of the six British villains in the Sly Cooper franchise.

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    • Ah, yes. I just replayed a mission with Dr. M in it; his accent is subtle, but he definitely has one.

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    • I always thought that he was originally a gentlemen at some point, either that or he was just old.

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    • Well, he probably is old, if 50-ish is old to you.

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    • That is about the end of middle age.

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    • That is late middle age.

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    • OK.

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    • I actually didn't realize that Dr. M was British in till I read Arpeggio's page.

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    • It's on Dr. M's page as well.

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    • I've seen.

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    • I didn't know that.

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    • So wher do you guys stand on Conner treating Dr. M badly, I think he did, but what about you?

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    • I do not. Just like with Wikia, "assume good faith." We don't know Conner, so I would rather assume he is good (like Sly and McSweeney claim he is) than assume he is bad (like Dr. M, a clear villain claims he is).

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    • I would perfer believing in that as well, but I still can't shake the feeling that Dr. M was telling the truth.

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    • Conner could be a good person but that doesn't necessarily mean that he treated Dr. M with respect. Being a nice person doesn't mean that you are always nice, you have to have a time where you are not nice if you are generally a nice person, it's only human(in this case an anthropomorphic raccoon). So Dr. M was probably telling the truth, and Sly might've been right about his father(Also Conner could've just been acting nice around Sly and had been a bad person, but that isn't the point of this comment).

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    • Oops that didn't come out in the right style, but guys still read it anyways.

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    • A FANDOM user
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